Curse

LoKi Foxfire · May 23, 2010, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Splinter Barrage before the splinter nerf was omfgpwnage, after the splinter nerf it is pretty good, good enough even to justify the presence of a ranger in a party, though probably not as good as a Rt/R splinter barrager. Can't really think of any other bow build that would justify a ranger's presence in a team.

Been playing a Ranger for 5 years now, I totally agree with this. I tried other builds but overall I don't think anything has really impressed me as much as Splinter Barrage does in terms of damage output...

I wish they'd unnerf Splinter Weapon too - I used to solo DoA (or whatever it's called) before it was nerfed. Was pretty interesting. They should at least increase the stupid duration!

Targren · May 30, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Asuran Scan
Read the Wind/Expert's Focus
Sundering Attack
Penetrating Shot
Prepared Shot
Savage Shot

This. So much this. Throw in "I am the Strongest!", Needling shot (With EF+AS+IATS, it can break 100dps) and travel with someone who can keep GDW on you and that build becomes even more sexy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoKi Foxfire

Been playing a Ranger for 5 years now, I totally agree with this. I tried other builds but overall I don't think anything has really impressed me as much as Splinter Barrage does in terms of damage output...

Very nice in a party with a human tank. Sucks bad when H/Hing since the AI won't stand still to ball them up.

Carinae · May 30, 2010, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I think Rangers are the weakest class in PvE right now, even Smite Monks compare well with Rangers DPS-wise. Yea, even when using spike bars like those listed. Warriors, Sins, Dervs, Necros, Rits, even Mesmers and Eles can deal more damage.

The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing Ranger have going for them is BHA.

[insert Ranger fan complaints]

UnChosen · May 30, 2010, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

I think Rangers are the weakest class in PvE right now, even Smite Monks compare well with Rangers DPS-wise. Yea, even when using spike bars like those listed. Warriors, Sins, Dervs, Necros, Rits, even Mesmers and Eles can deal more damage.

The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing Ranger have going for them is BHA.

[insert Ranger fan complaints]

Ele's damage is horrible in HM, at least ranger's attack damage from skills is armour ignoring, and nearly free with energy management from expertise. That said, ranger still need some help in the DPS department because they pretty much have subpar support skills in PvE (interrupts had proven to be rather useless there, hence the mesmer buff).

Showtime · May 30, 2010, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Ranger is my main for 5 years and sometimes I wish I would have went with something else. Still my fav but they keep nerfing the fun out of it.

And I really don't understand the nerfs. Bp was fun and gave us a reason to bring pets. Had a whole slew of skills to use.. conditions, interrupts, damage dealing.. Taking away the exploitable pet body? Again taking away a reason to use pets. Nerfing traps? Why? It worked for farming, but wasn't the fastest way to clear an area. 55 monks, elem, and sins do it faster from what I've seen.
Splinter weapon was really fun while it lasted. Barrage nerf bugged me a lot. I went from playing a ranger with several nice bows, to an URSANARY with a sword/shield and now PVE AP caller with a staff or spear and shield. What a waste of a main/skills. If I didn't have nice heros and PVE skills, I'd probably not even play my ranger anymore. I don't want a big buffs, but I don't understand why they took away builds that worked, but weren't totally dominant.

Maybe Anet nerfs rangers because so many of keep trying to play them lol. I don't think I will make that mistake in GW2 if I decide to play it.

Oh and I basically run... AP YMLAD Ebon Vanguard and Finish Him, Summon, or Battle standard of Wisdom. High expertise with survivors or radiant. The rest of the skills don't seem to matter a whole lot. Bring a pet for better e-management and pet attacks. Go spear with some shouts to buff the party. Works well with Rit heros and an MM hero. Havent tried daggers or Scythe yet. But all in all my necro does all that and other things better.

Tenebrae · May 30, 2010, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

I think Rangers are the weakest class in PvE right now, even Smite Monks compare well with Rangers DPS-wise.

Wuoah that was weird.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

Yea, even when using spike bars like those listed. Warriors, Sins, Dervs, Necros, Rits, even Mesmers and Eles can deal more damage.

Ill take that as a joke because those bars are not spike bars , turret rangers are not spikers , can deal sustained DPS and ...... mesmers and eles dealing more damage ? in HM ? hahaha yeah .... i hope you mean with gimmicks like AP caller or stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing Ranger have going for them is BHA.

... and then you showed your lack of knowledge . cough cough*techbabble*cough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

[insert Ranger fan complaints]

ppl who actually know something about rangers pve playstyle say whaaaat ?
- Whaaat ?

Seriously , there are 2 special markers to notice someone is clueless about rangers in pve , and those are :
- Barrage is awesomebananas
- Rangers are only worth to have because BHA.
Please , stop that already , is not funny anymore.

Fay Vert · May 30, 2010, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae

The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing Ranger have going for them is BHA.

If that is true then rangers are in far more trouble than even I thought. BHA is simply one of the worst skills in use. It is so bad it's beyond belief, how anyone can think it's even average I just can't comprehend. If you are looking to buff rangers you can start with BHA. An easy fix would be to just nerf it so that even the really bad rangers can tell it's useless, taking BHA out the game would make many rangers better immediately.

Chthon · May 31, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Sigh..... this again.

1. Yes, bows suck as damage dealing weapons. They also offer very little worthwhile non-damage functionality. In short, rangers are the weakest class in PvE right now. Get over it.

2. Barrage. No, it's not awesome bananas, or whatever. Because nothing rangers have is awesome bananas. It is, however, far and away the best DPS option rangers have once you get out of the tiny mobs in Prophecies.

3. Turret builds. Invest a whole bar to do single-target DPS that's still a lot lower than, for example, a sin who is also throwing off DB all over the place. The only thing that keeps these builds from being discarded as a total joke is the dearth of stronger builds.

4. BHA. The hate on this skill is irrational, and I've never seen the reasons why it purportedly sucks laid out in a logical manner instead of a conclusory one. This skill provides one thing that no other skill provides -- effective, unconditional, long-lasting caster shutdown that you can apply before the engagement starts. In situations where you need that, BHA is fricking golden. In situations where you don't need that, you don't need BHA. Then again, you don't need anything else a ranger has to offer either...

Amy Awien · May 31, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Why do you post in the Ranger forum, Chton? I mean, you don't have anything constructive to say and you've obviously decided that R/x sucks anyway, so why read and respond here? I can think of some reasons, you enjoy trolling, or you're a grumpy old-minded man or woman or something.

But don't answer, I am not interested in your rationalisations.

Back to the topic

Quote:

Originally Posted by akhil

... I used to love interrupting back when I started my ranger. Interrupting is fairly difficult due to decreased activation time ...

Under 2 sec activation they are back to normal, so enjoy interrupting like before.

Fay Vert · May 31, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

4. BHA. The hate on this skill is irrational, and I've never seen the reasons why it purportedly sucks laid out in a logical manner instead of a conclusory one. This skill provides one thing that no other skill provides -- effective, unconditional, long-lasting caster shutdown that you can apply before the engagement starts. In situations where you need that, BHA is fricking golden. In situations where you don't need that, you don't need BHA. Then again, you don't need anything else a ranger has to offer either...

I would say the love for this skill is irrational.

The problem is that it simply does not do what it says on the tin, because it misses. Being a bow ranger, you should be backline, ideally at full range or even extended with flatbow, especially given that there is no significant penalty for using a flatbow with BHA. The problem is that from that range you will never get a hit, BHA will almost always miss due to that crazy arc. So at range your elite is wasted. To use this and expect a hit you have to be at very close range and there are two problems with this. First if you geet to such close range then your caster target will kite, second, you are supposed to be a ranger, so having to run up to your important caster is dumb, as it will have cast all it wants in the few seconds it takes you to engage. If you are going to be at this kind of range then you really should be a different class to ranger.

Then there is the problem of what happens when you do land that jackpot hit. The daze is nice but doubling a cast time that is already halved is not exactly brilliant and the easily interruptable is only going to make a difference if there is a melee on that mob anyhow, seeing as the fire rate of bows is too slow to reliably interrupt in this way.

The duration looks great, but dazing a big mob for 17-20 seconds isn't going to be of any use when to be effective you should be killing that mob in half that time.

Condition removal is very easy too, so you need a cover condition or two.

Another problem is that it acts badly with other ranger skills. RtW and FW have no effect, worse still, DShot becomes a skill that you can't use against your target. This is nuts because disable is far more powerful at shutting down those spamming healer mobs.

The biggest problem with BHA though is that poor rangers who don't have much of a clue think they are doing something useful with it when they are not so it's a wast of a party member and helps persuade everyone that rangers are not worth anything. Ironically though, this doesn't happen often because non-rangers also think BHA is good!

For BHA to be any use it needs to halve it's recharge, duration and energy cost and lose that stupid arc restriction so that you can use bows that make a difference as well as other ranger skills like FW/RtW, then it would be worth carrying on your bar, just (still have the DShot problem).

JimmyTyme · May 31, 2010, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

In a strong, balanced team set up, while AoE is certainly king, there's definitely places where high single target damage really shines. Prepared Shot/Glass Arrow rangers are perfect for those groups with a small number of enemies or that pesky healer. A monk or rit dead almost immediately can make the difference between a a short fight and a long one.

an example of this can be found here, that build allows for spikes and sustained dmg that can often go up to and beyond 400dmg in 3seconds in HM and then reset for another spike in less than 4 seconds, while useing a bow, whereas some barrage builds for example a A/R critical barrage can hit 1-6 targets for 50-120 dmg every 2 seconds which at the present time in HM puts it far ahead of most elementalist builds anymore

-Makai- · Jun 01, 2010, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Useful choice for wielding a bow in PvE:

Equip a bow and run Archer's Signet + Technobabble.

Chthon · Jun 01, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

The problem is that... you will ... almost always miss...

Learn to read the AI better.

You should not have any trouble at all hitting an un-aggroed monster. They either stand still or run a predictable patrol route with predictable pauses where they stand still.

Nor should you have much trouble hitting a monster mid-battle. Monsters don't cancel their casts to dodge BHA. Nor will they break off from a target to dodge. Simply make sure that your target is stationary and going to stay that way for a second before you shoot.

Quote:

Then there is the problem of what happens when you do land that jackpot hit. The daze is nice but doubling a cast time that is already halved is not exactly brilliant

Recent update removed the HM cast bonus on skills w/ cast time <=2sec.

Quote:

easily interruptable is only going to make a difference if there is a melee on that mob anyhow, seeing as the fire rate of bows is too slow to reliably interrupt in this way.

1. With the HM cast bonus gone on skills w/ cast time <=2sec, most skills -- particularly all of those 1sec cast skills -- are going to be 2sec or longer under dazed. Even the relatively sluggish setup of longbow with 25% IAS manages 1.8sec attack speed. That shouldn't be a problem anymore.

2. If worse comes to worse, bring Needling/Penetrating/Sundering and use it as an interrupt.

Quote:

The duration looks great, but dazing a big mob for 17-20 seconds isn't going to be of any use when to be effective you should be killing that mob in half that time.

That's really the heart of it. Most monsters do not need such heavy shutdown. Technobabble -- or now Psychic Instability -- takes them out of play long enough to kill. BHA is pretty much reserved for exceptions to that rule -- big bosses and obnoxious/multi healer mobs. I never said that BHA was a great general purpose skill. It's a niche skill, but it fills its niche very, very well.

Quote:

Condition removal is very easy too, so you need a cover condition or two.

It's rare for mobs to have multiple condition removals. It's also rare for the monster with the only condition removal to not be the target of BHA, preventing him from ever using it.

Quote:

The biggest problem with BHA though is that poor rangers who don't have much of a clue think they are doing something useful with it when they are not

Whether a skill is good or bad depends not at all upon whether the people who use it are good or bad. If a moron puts PS on his monk bar and spams it on the Orders necro who is standing way out of aggro, only losing life to his own sacrifices, does that make PS a bad skill? How about the R/W who spams Barrage to power SY!, but stands off to the side out of shout range of his entire party? Does that make SY! a bad skill?

Tenebrae · Jun 01, 2010, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I would say the love for this skill is irrational.
<undeniable facts>

+1 to all of it.

Just like you said , ppl who dont use a ranger in pve and has no clue about it love it . When you get a clue , ppl laugh about BHA.
Like me and some ppl who actually know about rangers said, Techbabble >>>>>> BHA. BHA is only better than techbabble for bosses and thats ...... 5% of the foes you kill in a zone/mission ? nah , not even 3% . Not to mention the bloody hell lots of things you can do to avoid wasting an elite on the ranger by using BHA+Epidemic ( because im guessing no one uses BHA without that skill ) to counter a dangerous caster boss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

For BHA to be any use it needs to halve it's recharge, duration and energy cost and lose that stupid arc restriction so that you can use bows that make a difference as well as other ranger skills like FW/RtW, then it would be worth carrying on your bar, just (still have the DShot problem).

Maybe but still techbabble has adj range and interrupt those foes too. Even now that casting time in HM has been changed theres even LESS reason to bring BHA ...... why waste a 15 sec recharge elite when you have D-shot , savage and you can use your elite for Punishing shot ? ( if interrupting is so important ofc , lol ).

Bows are far from being useless but please , dont use them for BHA , it makes baby jesus cry

Lanier · Jun 01, 2010, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by akhil

What they are meant to do (from my experience) is to interrupt and spread conditions. Sure that works OK in NM, but in HM it's useless.

Rupts, daze, and blind are not useless in HM.

Bandwagon · Jun 01, 2010, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Why do you post in the Ranger forum, Chton? I mean, you don't have anything constructive to say and you've obviously decided that R/x sucks anyway, so why read and respond here? I can think of some reasons, you enjoy trolling, or you're a grumpy old-minded man or woman or something.

But don't answer, I am not interested in your rationalisations.

No one is interested in your generalizations, get over yourself

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Rupts, daze, and blind are not useless in HM.

True, but simply devoting your resources to killing the monsters is possible and more effective by using other Professions.

Rupts - mesmers do it better and have better payoffs for rupting (CoF, Psychic Instability, Power Lock/Spike)

As mentioned before, if dazed is absolutely necessary, technobabble is by far the superior choice for laying down a blanket Daze (w/o devoting an elite to boot).

Throw Dirt / Dust Trap / Smoke Trap - .....Those are the only ranger blinds I can think of off the top of my head, the recharge and touch range kills TD, the Traps are traps......(and not even close to being maintainable).

My 2 cents.
In my humble opinion the bow is completely outclassed by all martial weapons in terms of raw damage. Unfortunately, the bow's selling point is enemy disruption and condition spreading to compensate for this. After years of power creep, disruption has taken a backside seat simply because raw damage is more effective.

Ugh · Jun 01, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Barrage is good in tank 'n' spank (but is more effectively ran by a rit) and in areas with a lot of enemies in a cramped space (but is most likely inferior to another option).

BHA has very limited uses.

All other ranger elites are mediocre at best.

The only worthwhile conditions in PvE cannot be effectively spread by a ranger.

Rupts are bad to focus a build around.

The only advantages of ranger turrets are faster target switching, being less affected by snares, and easier spikes. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages: one less frontliner, less damage overall, no AoE, less effective SY, etc.

So yeah, rangers suck. I might make a QQ thread about it later. Meh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Rupts, daze, and blind are not useless in HM.

Rupts are good if:

- You have an open spot on your build for some reason and have absolutely nothing else to put there.
- Some foe has a wtfpwn skill with a semi-long cast that insta-wipes your whole team. Anything less and you'd be better off with Pain Inverter.
- Some foe has a megaheal with a long casting time (i.e. this).

Daze is great, but the way rangers apply it has very limited uses. BHA is really only good if you're fighting an abnormally strong caster boss, which isn't very often. In other cases, Technobabble is better.

Blind can't be effectively spread by rangers.

alexander92 · Jun 01, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Rangers are not weak,they are awsome.They have one of the best primary atributes of all the classes.Bows arn't supost to do big damage,that thing is what scythes do or axes or whatever.If u want to deal big damage as a ranger start abusing that awsome shit called expertise.Have you ever tried a daggers ranger with a pet?25% ias,deep wound on demand,energy management and uber dps?Or a scythe ranger?Idc those are other classes weapons but i'll say that again ,bows are not for big damage.Rangers are fine .Dervs and eles are broken.

UnChosen · Jun 01, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexander92

Rangers are not weak,they are awsome.They have one of the best primary atributes of all the classes.Bows arn't supost to do big damage,that thing is what scythes do or axes or whatever.If u want to deal big damage as a ranger start abusing that awsome shit called expertise.Have you ever tried a daggers ranger with a pet?25% ias,deep wound on demand,energy management and uber dps?Or a scythe ranger?Idc those are other classes weapons but i'll say that again ,bows are not for big damage.Rangers are fine .Dervs and eles are broken.

If they can't revamp the ENTIRE GAME to make disruption preferable, then EVERYTHING needs to be big damage...period. Its only a matter of how big depending on whether or not the class is a glass canon and how good are their other support skills.

Ariena Najea · Jun 01, 2010, 08:24 PM // 20:24

This is something I can up with for for DoA:

Marks 12+(whatever)
Exp 12+1+1
Wilderness 3+1

Incendiary Arrows
Sundering Shot
Penetrating Attack
Body Shot (bring Weaken Armor on a hero)
Ignite Arrows
Ebon Standard of Honor
Drunken Master
"Save Yourselves" or Asuran Scan

Lots of little damage packets makes EBSoH happy. Also have some decent single-target damage for taking out key targets.